Post by gumboman Post by Demail@example.com
First of all, the Jewish people were given back the land that was
theirs to begin with many many years ago. �They were given a dried up
old piece of land that no one really wanted and they turned it into a
prosperous country. Then the Palastinians wanted it badly. �Israel has
taken land in wars, yes. Israel defended itself during the 6 day war
and that is when they took they were attacked they took the Gaza
Strip, Golan Heights and the West Bank. �Spoils of war. �You can't
just set up to destroy a country and then cry about it when you lose
something. �Why is it that no Arab country wants to take in the
"Palestinians," many of whom migrated into the West Bank from several
Arab nations AFTER Israel became a state? �They migrated in from Iraq,
Kuwait, Lebanon, Jordan, etc. �If your argument is that Israel didn't
have that land for a long long time...well what about those migrants
who came into the West Bank? �Many of those people had never lived
there EVER. �And NOW they want land from Israel. �They want part of
Jerusalem so they can destroy historical sites that are holy to more
than a few religions. �No thanks.
Missy, that's a nice speech. Not entirely factual but I'm sure it
would play well at a pep rally in Tel Aviv.
Post by Dfirstname.lastname@example.org
If you are comfortable using Israel as the root of all evils because
it is what you are used to or because you find it easy. �For you to
seem pleased or supportive of Iraq or Lebanon or any other Arab
country wiping out Israel is really scary. �That's what we need right
now in this world....more Arab nations in power that hate our guts.
To me, people like you are scarier than anyone else. �You have the
ability to educate yourself. �You have the ability to really
investigate things and see what truly goes on...yet you choose to just
spew out hatred that is unfounded.
Well, Missy, I have investigated things for myself and what I have
found is you are mostly full of shit.
1. I don't give a shit about Israel one way or the other. I give a
shit about the US and I don't think the US should be involved in the
2. Arab nations hate 'us' because we have created an asymmetry of
power in the region to their detriment. I think it is entirely logical
for them to 'hate' us if they do so.
3. I'm not 'pleased' or 'supportive' of anything. I'm commenting on
what I see and it's not just me that sees the same things. The
Israelis, as a client state of the US, built their military to defeat
a group of countries who would fight another 67 or 73 war. Just as the
US built its military to fight a land based, mechanized, Soviet type
threat. The question is whether or not a guerilla type force can
defeat a mechanized force and I thank we see numerous cases of that
happening as the European colonial system devolved. Iraq and Lebanon
being the two latest examples.
If you look at a map you see an Israeli state that has antagonized
most of its neighbors. Neighbors who, because of the spread of science
and technology around the planet, have more than adequate rocketry to
rock Israel's world and Israel really has no defense. The lack of
defense isn't necessarily Israel's fault as there just isn't much of a
defense possible against small rocket attack. IF they can be faulted
for anything it would be an over reliance on mechanization as a
deterrent. The US can get away with that in IRaq because we just bring
the troops home and the Iraqis have no capability to follow. The
Israelis aren't in that position.
Contrary to what you may think not every criticism is a function of
hate. Plenty of people have criticized me over my lifetime not because
they hated me, but to make a particular point or nudge my thinking in
a different direction.
4. If Israel gets 'wiped out' (your words) it will be because of their
own stupidity and nothing else. Persoanlly, as I have stated before I
don't think that is a likely scenario. I think it is much more likely
that as the Arabs apply more pressure there begins to be an 'atrophy'
more than a 'wipe out'. If you take an honest look at the area I think
you would be able to see why outsiders would say that. Israel is
basically surrounded and there is nothing the US can do to change the
geography. ROckets and other small explosives are pouring into the
area and in the next big fight there aren't going to be tanks coming
across Israel's border there are going to be rockets that arrive in a
few minutes. Lots of rockets. The Israelis should have seen it coming
and prepared themselves accordingly - by getting a peace treaty. The
fact they wanted their 'spoils of war' (again, your words) kept them
from doing that and now they're kind of fucked (if you ask me as an
5. If you classify trying to look at a particular situation
analytically as opposed to emotionally as 'hate' then you're as
foolish as the Israelis who thought that the land was 'theirs' (your
words) after being gone for a couple thousand years or that no group
would attempt to reclaim the 'spoils of war' (again, your words).
Post by Demail@example.com
Gumboman, as you stated: �"do
you really expect a group, any group, to simply roll over and play
nice when foreigners give their land to someone else that has been
mostly gone for a couple thousand years? Can you name me a single
indigenous group on the planet that would accept that happening to
them? If not, why would you expect it of Arabs? "
Most of those Arabs did NOT live in the West Bank or many of the
"Palestinians" lived elsewhere in other countries, never having lived
in what they now consider "Palestine." �So do YOU really expect any
group to simply roll over and play nice when FOREIGNERS try to invade
their land?? �Under the premise of your own argument...Israel should
not just roll over and give up land to people who really are
foreigners to that area.
If you are going to apply your theory to one group....I suppose you
should apply it to all...or it just MIGHT seem like you are somewhat
prejudice..and I am sure that you arent....right?
If believing the US should remove itself from the Middle East makes me
prejudiced in your eyes then I'm just going to have to live with that.
I've always said though that any individual should have the freedom to
lend a hand in any way they see fit outside of US, state sponsored
violence. So I fully support your right to go over there and help out.
It seems to me after investigation that there appear to be as many
Israeli chickenhawks as there are Iraqi/neocon chickenhawks. People
who supposedly support a particular activity that would rather have
others put their asses on the line instead of them doing so
themselves. I suggest if it bothers you all that much as to what may
happen over there in the future, you stop worrying about me and
increasing numbers of people like me who think the US should leave the
Middle East for its own good, and get your ass over there to help out.
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Little Missy..then you are just a pompous ass. I think either might
apply nicely to you. You obviously are so biased against Israel that
you can see nothing else. So there is absolutely no discussing any of
it with you. You feel that Israel is the one always harrassing
ignore that information. Either way it is fine with me...and
analytical. Obviously it is a very emotional issue with you because
you are cursing and ranting and raving. I am sorry if it upsets you
so much that you become so irate and unstable. I will put you in my
reaction...your posts seem to change as you go along. No big deal to
me. I was posting my thoughts...analytically..and obviously you are
very upset that someone happens to disagree with you. Perhaps you
your narrow mind..